Date   

ps Re: FS-or-trade: 25lbs + of internal gear hubs

Thomas
 

In the early ’80s Sachs in Europe ...  occupied the high end and Sturmey Archer occupied the mid to low end.

http://bikeraceinfo.com/Cycle-Industry/Sachs-history-Neugent/Sachs-history-part-three-sachs-expands.html


Possible trade add-on, also looking for :
   a nice 73mm B.B., a few 599 X 48 lightweight tires, and maybe a light new 9spd chain or 2



On 2022-08-10 21:20, Thomas wrote:

If interested, be sure to read the more detailed description below.
      First picture includes:
F&S dreigang, $12 each, $40 for all 4
SRAM Dual-drive,  $28
Nexus inter-4, complete, (2-cog/8speed version)   $40
S.A. - 5 wide,   $13
Nexus inter-7 shift lever   $4
Everything in first picture    $100

         Second picture includes:
F&S duomatic with reverse-pedal shift AND brake   $60
F&S duomatic with reverse-pedal shift AND brake AND tubular wheel (the tire holds air!)    $100
F&S duomatic with reverse-pedal shift, no brake freewheeling version (see details below)   $55
(these, as bare hubs, usually go for 80 -> 160 on e-bay, each includes choice of cog.)
And one Sachs Commander orbit dual-drive (2 X 6 or 7), with NOS trigger-shifter     $100
Everything in the second picture:  $300

Everything in both pictures:  $375

Trades also interesting, for example, I am looking for lightweight 559 rims, in the ~400 gram (or less) range.

In my opinion, while Sturmey Archer gets more mention/attention, and made a wider variety of hubs,
I think Fitchel & Sachs made a higher quality hub.
    If you want more pictures or have any questions, please ask, but first...
           More Sale Details:
The first picture is labeled 3+ because everything in it is 3 or more internal speeds/gears.
There are 4 F&S dreigang (3-speed) reverse-pedal-brake hubs, 3 are 36-spoke, one is 28-spoke.   They all need a "trim-kit", meaning their internals are all there and functional, but need anti-rotation washer, final nut that holds wheel onto bike, and some need pull-chain.   There is a pile of cogs, you get one of your choice tooth-count per hub, or the whole pile if you buy all 4.   each one comes with a cable-guide-pulley.   One of them has a mismatch between NDS cover and brake-arm, $10 for that one.
There is one original F&S trigger shifter that I can't figure out if it is functional or not, it goes with the first sale or the lot.    I list these as $12 each (your choice), or $40 for all 4 ...   preference to lot-sale.   These individually cost me more than $40 each.

Next there is a 28-spoke Nexus inter-4, lightly custom modified to carry 2 cogs, it has ALL of it's "trim kit" AND it's fine shift lever with cable.

Then there is the Sram dual drive, the external controller plastic is present, but might be only partial... needs anti-rotation washer and final nut, but has THREE pushrods (the rod that sticks into the hub to actuate gear changes, missed including these in the picture)   $28
And an extra nexus inter-7 shift lever (I have it because it will actually work on/for the inter-4, and the inter-4 shifter was a hard/long search)   $4

A (modern) Sturmey Archer 5-wide with pull-chain but not final nuts or anti-rotation washer (How do these all get so lost!)    $13
   Take everything in that first picture for $100 and make me happy, or make an offer on them all or any specific piece/combination you see in the pictures.   Seriously, the make an offer button is very live!
   ABSOLUTELY EVERY OFFER IS TRULY APPRECIATED !

Second picture details:
There are at least 4 versions of the F&S 2-speed, 2 are represented here, the important thing to know is that the one with NO brake doe NOT mean you can back-pedal (I learned the hard way with the intention of converting it to a dual-drive...   no-go  ={   )   They do work with a schlumpf speed-drive for a fun 4-speed no-cable bike.
The other thing worth noting about these hubs is that they will outlast your great grandchildren.
    If I lived in flat-land I would be keeping more of them (I'm keeping one)
I'm happy to de-spoke the wheel and sell the hub OR the rim/tire seperately.   The rim is a medium-light Fiamme red-label with a tufo-taped Tufo dry-plus 32mm tubeless tire.
The Sachs Orbit is exactly what I was looking for...   if it was an up-shift, but the internals are down-shift.  Still a fine hub, and priced accordingly, if anything here does not sell, this is the one I would be happiest to keep.
It takes basic Maillard cogs and comes with NOS 13/14 small-end screw-on, this is why it can be 6-speed or 7speed, the screw-on bottom (retainer) cog can be one or 2 cogs.   These hubs are seen a lot in Germany, but not many made it across the pond

All of these prices are super low if you go looking for them (I bet the nexus inter-4 hub 8-speed is the only one existing).  If you know what they are and look for them, this is low price, if you do not know, this might seem high, I really do not know what to ask for them, these are often a lot more than listed value, I invested more than 3X this getting them, but sadly suspect almost no-one would even accept them as gifts   ={    But someone will think this is the jackpot, is that person ready to buy ??
I should note also that shipping is NOT included in these prices, but flat-rate usps makes it plausible...

After years of searching and accumulating, I finally have what I want in IGH, one way or another, everything else goes now.


Thomas Seaman:  noMadic
Moscow, Idaho  ::  u.s. of A.


FS-or-trade: 25lbs + of internal gear hubs

Thomas
 

If interested, be sure to read the more detailed description below.
      First picture includes:
F&S dreigang, $12 each, $40 for all 4
SRAM Dual-drive,  $28
Nexus inter-4, complete, (2-cog/8speed version)   $40
S.A. - 5 wide,   $13
Nexus inter-7 shift lever   $4
Everything in first picture    $100

         Second picture includes:
F&S duomatic with reverse-pedal shift AND brake   $60
F&S duomatic with reverse-pedal shift AND brake AND tubular wheel (the tire holds air!)    $100
F&S duomatic with reverse-pedal shift, no brake freewheeling version (see details below)   $55
(these, as bare hubs, usually go for 80 -> 160 on e-bay, each includes choice of cog.)
And one Sachs Commander orbit dual-drive (2 X 6 or 7), with NOS trigger-shifter     $100
Everything in the second picture:  $300

Everything in both pictures:  $375

Trades also interesting, for example, I am looking for lightweight 559 rims, in the ~400 gram (or less) range.

In my opinion, while Sturmey Archer gets more mention/attention, and made a wider variety of hubs,
I think Fitchel & Sachs made a higher quality hub.
    If you want more pictures or have any questions, please ask, but first...
           More Sale Details:
The first picture is labeled 3+ because everything in it is 3 or more internal speeds/gears.
There are 4 F&S dreigang (3-speed) reverse-pedal-brake hubs, 3 are 36-spoke, one is 28-spoke.   They all need a "trim-kit", meaning their internals are all there and functional, but need anti-rotation washer, final nut that holds wheel onto bike, and some need pull-chain.   There is a pile of cogs, you get one of your choice tooth-count per hub, or the whole pile if you buy all 4.   each one comes with a cable-guide-pulley.   One of them has a mismatch between NDS cover and brake-arm, $10 for that one.
There is one original F&S trigger shifter that I can't figure out if it is functional or not, it goes with the first sale or the lot.    I list these as $12 each (your choice), or $40 for all 4 ...   preference to lot-sale.   These individually cost me more than $40 each.

Next there is a 28-spoke Nexus inter-4, lightly custom modified to carry 2 cogs, it has ALL of it's "trim kit" AND it's fine shift lever with cable.

Then there is the Sram dual drive, the external controller plastic is present, but might be only partial... needs anti-rotation washer and final nut, but has THREE pushrods (the rod that sticks into the hub to actuate gear changes, missed including these in the picture)   $28
And an extra nexus inter-7 shift lever (I have it because it will actually work on/for the inter-4, and the inter-4 shifter was a hard/long search)   $4

A (modern) Sturmey Archer 5-wide with pull-chain but not final nuts or anti-rotation washer (How do these all get so lost!)    $13
   Take everything in that first picture for $100 and make me happy, or make an offer on them all or any specific piece/combination you see in the pictures.   Seriously, the make an offer button is very live!
   ABSOLUTELY EVERY OFFER IS TRULY APPRECIATED !

Second picture details:
There are at least 4 versions of the F&S 2-speed, 2 are represented here, the important thing to know is that the one with NO brake doe NOT mean you can back-pedal (I learned the hard way with the intention of converting it to a dual-drive...   no-go  ={   )   They do work with a schlumpf speed-drive for a fun 4-speed no-cable bike.
The other thing worth noting about these hubs is that they will outlast your great grandchildren.
    If I lived in flat-land I would be keeping more of them (I'm keeping one)
I'm happy to de-spoke the wheel and sell the hub OR the rim/tire seperately.   The rim is a medium-light Fiamme red-label with a tufo-taped Tufo dry-plus 32mm tubeless tire.
The Sachs Orbit is exactly what I was looking for...   if it was an up-shift, but the internals are down-shift.  Still a fine hub, and priced accordingly, if anything here does not sell, this is the one I would be happiest to keep.
It takes basic Maillard cogs and comes with NOS 13/14 small-end screw-on, this is why it can be 6-speed or 7speed, the screw-on bottom (retainer) cog can be one or 2 cogs.   These hubs are seen a lot in Germany, but not many made it across the pond

All of these prices are super low if you go looking for them (I bet the nexus inter-4 hub 8-speed is the only one existing).  If you know what they are and look for them, this is low price, if you do not know, this might seem high, I really do not know what to ask for them, these are often a lot more than listed value, I invested more than 3X this getting them, but sadly suspect almost no-one would even accept them as gifts   ={    But someone will think this is the jackpot, is that person ready to buy ??
I should note also that shipping is NOT included in these prices, but flat-rate usps makes it plausible...

After years of searching and accumulating, I finally have what I want in IGH, one way or another, everything else goes now.


Thomas Seaman:  noMadic
Moscow, Idaho  ::  u.s. of A.


Re: solved, thanks ! Re: [geared-hub-bikes] what is this? did S.A. use 2 different diameter pull-chains?

Thomas
 

thank you John !
Both for pointing me to this AND all the work you have put into creating
it !!!
    noMadic   Thomas

On 2022-08-01 10:50, John S. Allen wrote:
Why skinny indicator spindles with 5-speed hubs? These hubs have a
clutch spring inside the hollow axle. A pressed-in sleeve inside she
axle serves as a stop for the spring. Thin indicator spindles will
work in hubs that take fat ones as long as the length is compatible,
but not vice versa. Indicator-spindle compatibility issues are
explained in detail at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/indicators.html

On 8/1/2022 12:11 PM, Thomas wrote:

solution = thick ones fit my one S.A. SRF-3 and two BWR-3
Thin one fits my X-RD-5 and X-RF-5 (it seems that I am missing one
thin pull-chain)
(all my S.A. hubs are "modern")
I did not know where any of these came from, was attempting to put
the thick into the 5-spd and asked here without/before trying the
thick in the various 3-spd's
It is possible that there is something wrong with my 5spd hubs and
they should also take the thick ones, but unlikely 2 hubs with same
obstruction here AND the thin works, so I'm going to call it solved.

big thank you !!

noMadic   Thomas


Re: solved, thanks ! Re: [geared-hub-bikes] what is this? did S.A. use 2 different diameter pull-chains?

John S. Allen
 

Why skinny indicator spindles with 5-speed hubs? These hubs have a clutch spring inside the hollow axle. A pressed-in sleeve inside she axle serves as a stop for the spring. Thin indicator spindles will work in hubs that take fat ones as long as the length is compatible, but not vice versa. Indicator-spindle compatibility issues are explained in detail at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/indicators.html

On 8/1/2022 12:11 PM, Thomas wrote:

solution = thick ones fit my one S.A. SRF-3 and two BWR-3
Thin one fits my X-RD-5 and X-RF-5 (it seems that I am missing one thin pull-chain)
(all my S.A. hubs are "modern")
I did not know where any of these came from, was attempting to put the thick into the 5-spd and asked here without/before trying the thick in the various 3-spd's
It is possible that there is something wrong with my 5spd hubs and they should also take the thick ones, but unlikely 2 hubs with same obstruction here AND the thin works, so I'm going to call it solved.

big thank you !!

noMadic   Thomas
--
John S. Allen

CyclingSavvy Instructor
League Cycling instructor
Author, Bicycling Street Smarts
Technical Writer and Editor, sheldonbrown.com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


solved, thanks ! Re: [geared-hub-bikes] what is this? did S.A. use 2 different diameter pull-chains?

Thomas
 

solution = thick ones fit my one S.A. SRF-3 and two BWR-3
Thin one fits my X-RD-5 and X-RF-5 (it seems that I am missing one thin pull-chain)
(all my S.A. hubs are "modern")
I did not know where any of these came from, was attempting to put the thick into the 5-spd and asked here without/before trying the thick in the various 3-spd's
It is possible that there is something wrong with my 5spd hubs and they should also take the thick ones, but unlikely 2 hubs with same obstruction here AND the thin works, so I'm going to call it solved.

big thank you !!

noMadic   Thomas

On 2022-08-01 08:00, Michael Wilson wrote:
The larger diameter pull chain rods fit AW & S5 etc up to at least 1980.  I do not know much about more recent SA hubs, nor when the designs changed.  I believe the internals changed a lot at some time without changing the model designation from AW, but that would be a lot newer than my experience, so I do not know if all AWs use the larger diameter pull chain rods.

Nor do I know if the threads are the same allowing the smaller diameter rods to work in an AW.  Matching rod length to the axle length is critical if you use that method of adjusting the gears; otherwise short rods work OK if there is enough pull chain.

I can’t say what the threading is, of course, but I have only seen the larger diameter indicators with the skinny pointy end. I don’t have any parts post-dating the Taiwanese purchase of SA, so maybe they’ve changed that. Do you know what the oddball came from?

David Bean
Arlington, MA USA



Re: what is this? did S.A. use 2 different diameter pull-chains?

Michael Wilson
 

The larger diameter pull chain rods fit AW & S5 etc up to at least 1980.  I do not know much about more recent SA hubs, nor when the designs changed.  I believe the internals changed a lot at some time without changing the model designation from AW, but that would be a lot newer than my experience, so I do not know if all AWs use the larger diameter pull chain rods.

Nor do I know if the threads are the same allowing the smaller diameter rods to work in an AW.  Matching rod length to the axle length is critical if you use that method of adjusting the gears; otherwise short rods work OK if there is enough pull chain.



Re: what is this? did S.A. use 2 different diameter pull-chains?

beandk50
 

I can’t say what the threading is, of course, but I have only seen the larger diameter indicators with the skinny pointy end. I don’t have any parts post-dating the Taiwanese purchase of SA, so maybe they’ve changed that. Do you know what the oddball came from?

David Bean
Arlington, MA USA

 


Re: FW, was Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

John B. Fowler
 

The current generation of youth isn’t able to drive a manual transmission, change a tire, joint set and file a handsaw, sharpen a plane or load and fire a Brown Bess.  Maybe I’ll need to change the shifter to one with only 3 on it and leave them curious.  You’d think internal hubs would be back in style given the abused and poorly maintained derailleur systems that are so common.  Tuning up a Raleigh Twenty now to stay out of trouble.  “Ride a wheel, on British steel!”

 

From: main@geared-hub-bikes.groups.io <main@geared-hub-bikes.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael Wilson
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2022 9:18 AM
To: main@geared-hub-bikes.groups.io
Subject: Re: [geared-hub-bikes] FW, was Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

 

The next generation might be confused when the hub does not get the lowest gear they expect from a hub labeled FW four speed.


what is this? did S.A. use 2 different diameter pull-chains?

Thomas
 

I have the standard(?) that works for me, but these 2 larger diameter
pull chains showed up in my spares box they do not fit through the axles
of my (newer versions) various S.A. 3 or S.A. 5
they appear to be new and have a slightly different (pointy) end on the,
also...
They have an SA stamp on them, so I guess S.A.   =}

Anyone know what these might fit?

Thanks for any insight/info./speculation

noMadic  Thomas Seaman


Re: FW, was Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

Michael Wilson
 

The next generation might be confused when the hub does not get the lowest gear they expect from a hub labeled FW four speed.


Re: FW, was Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

Michael Wilson
 

The hub date is stamped on the shell.


Re: FW, was Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

John B. Fowler
 

Michael,
Tks! I have extra AW internals from a 28 spoke hub so I’ll just move them into the FW shell, put on a larger cog and all will be well and simpler to maintain for the next generation. Thank you for the info. My bike is a Humber which I presume is a 47 as it has the brass headbadge by appt to HM The King. FFF Regards, John

On Saturday 07/30/2022 at 10:51 am, Michael Wilson wrote:

John Fowler;
I have a few FW/S5 spares, as do a few others on this list/forum.  I
do not have shift springs.  Do you just want to update to newer
springs, or do you have some other issue?  

I never used the FW as an FW; I converted them to S5 shifting,  And
within a few years I used S5.2 shifting.

You could have just put the AW internals into your FW wheel, assuming
you had AW internals not locked into the AW hub shell.

Note that if your FW is a 1947 with original internals, it will have
the 8 dog gear ring (I think K511) which for me was problematic. 
Back when I was strong I wore out the dogs between the 2nd-3rd FW
shift (1st-2nd AW), which caused gear slip.  The more recent (1950+
?) part (K511A ? and some HSA number) has 4 long dogs so cannot wear
in that spot.  The gear ring is common between AW and FW (and FM, FC,
FG, AG, AB and I may be forgetting a few).  The newer part will shift
differently.  The 3rd-2nd shift will use the cable pull of the clutch
to disable the high gear pawls, where the old part has the forward
motion of the pedals disabling the high gear pawls after the clutch
moves off the 3rd gear dogs.


FW, was Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

Michael Wilson
 

John Fowler;
I have a few FW/S5 spares, as do a few others on this list/forum.  I do not have shift springs.  Do you just want to update to newer springs, or do you have some other issue?  

I never used the FW as an FW; I converted them to S5 shifting,  And within a few years I used S5.2 shifting.

You could have just put the AW internals into your FW wheel, assuming you had AW internals not locked into the AW hub shell.

Note that if your FW is a 1947 with original internals, it will have the 8 dog gear ring (I think K511) which for me was problematic.  Back when I was strong I wore out the dogs between the 2nd-3rd FW shift (1st-2nd AW), which caused gear slip.  The more recent (1950+ ?) part (K511A ? and some HSA number) has 4 long dogs so cannot wear in that spot.  The gear ring is common between AW and FW (and FM, FC, FG, AG, AB and I may be forgetting a few).  The newer part will shift differently.  The 3rd-2nd shift will use the cable pull of the clutch to disable the high gear pawls, where the old part has the forward motion of the pedals disabling the high gear pawls after the clutch moves off the 3rd gear dogs.



Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

John B. Fowler
 

Not seeing a good source in the US for FW internals. My hub is a 47 and apparently some spring changes were made in the 50’s to avoid the difficult pull. Thanks for any sources you can provide. As a sub i built up a 700 rim with an AW with a 22 cog and done well with that.

On Friday 07/29/2022 at 1:55 pm, ighexpert wrote:
IGH internal damage is NOT contagious! That is a silly idea.
Any competent mechanic can service any internal gear hub!
Sturmey-Archer hubs are designed to be easily serviceable. All parts
are readily available.

Only 3 things are required. 1. An Exploded Diagram and/or Service
Instructions 2. Special Tools 3. Parts availability.

With Sturmey-Archer all 3 are readily available! 1. Exploded Diagrams
and Parts Lists are available at Sturmey-Archer.com
1a. Instructional Videos are on the official S-A Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxCB6HZtnh45CBPLOMziy0w/playlists
2. Tools and 3. Parts are available at Sturmey-ArcherParts.com.


Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

Michael Wilson
 

And there is also this tool:


I believe they make them for different spoke counts, but even if not you could probably make it work.  I have not studied the different variations in hub diameter at the spoke holes.


Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

ighexpert
 

IGH internal damage is NOT contagious!  That is a silly idea.
Any competent mechanic can service any internal gear hub!
Sturmey-Archer hubs are designed to be easily serviceable. All parts are readily available.

Only 3 things are required.  1. An Exploded Diagram and/or Service Instructions  2. Special Tools  3. Parts availability.

With Sturmey-Archer all 3 are readily available!  1. Exploded Diagrams and Parts Lists are available at Sturmey-Archer.com
1a. Instructional Videos are on the official S-A Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxCB6HZtnh45CBPLOMziy0w/playlists
2. Tools and 3. Parts are available at Sturmey-ArcherParts.com.


Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

John B. Fowler
 

FWIW Mark’s bottom bracket tool and crank cotter pin tool have saved me alot of time and trouble on vintage bike work. Well worth the small cost for quality tools! FFF Regards, John Fowler

On Thursday 07/28/2022 at 5:57 pm, Mark Stonich wrote:
Plan A is to clamp the shell in a vice with wooden blocks. I made a
pair for myself in 2 sizes, for modern alloy and steel or vintage
alloy.


Where are you?






Mark Stonich
Bikesmith Design and Fabrication LLC
5349 Elliot Ave
Minneapolis MN USA
Ph. +1 (612) 710-9593
http://www.bikesmithdesign.com


On Jul 28, 2022, at 5:54 AM, zaynan via groups.io
<zaynan@...> wrote:

I'm trying to remove the ball ring on a brand new Sturmey A2 hub that
is not built up into a wheel. The reason for this is to retrieve the
main innards (not driver assembly) to be used as a replacement for the
same hub which is built into a wheel but with faulty innards.

There may not be a solution to this but thought I would ask. I have
tried (with the hub held by axle in a vice) and sprocket installed to
use the ball spanner in conjunction with a chain whip on the sprocket
but you simply can't get an accurate enough and forceful enough
purchase on it to loosen the ball ring. (full internals for the A2 hub
are not currently available, hence the problem!)

Any help would be greatly appreciated please!


Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

John B. Fowler
 

Any chance that a penetrant like Kroil or Liquid Wrench might aid in loosening it?

 

From: main@geared-hub-bikes.groups.io <main@geared-hub-bikes.groups.io> On Behalf Of zaynan via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 6:55 AM
To: main@geared-hub-bikes.groups.io
Subject: [geared-hub-bikes] ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

 

I'm trying to remove the ball ring on a brand new Sturmey A2 hub that is not built up into a wheel. The reason for this is to retrieve the main innards (not driver assembly) to be used as a replacement for the same hub which is built into a wheel but with faulty innards.

There may not be a solution to this but thought I would ask. I have tried (with the hub held by axle in a vice) and sprocket installed to use the ball spanner in conjunction with a chain whip on the sprocket but you simply can't get an accurate enough and forceful enough purchase on it to loosen the ball ring. (full internals for the A2 hub are not currently available, hence the problem!)

Any help would be greatly appreciated please!


Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

Mark Stonich
 

Plan A is to clamp the shell in a vice with wooden blocks. I made a pair for myself in 2 sizes, for modern alloy and steel or vintage alloy.

Where are you? 



Mark Stonich
Bikesmith Design and Fabrication LLC
5349 Elliot Ave
Minneapolis MN USA
Ph. +1 (612) 710-9593

On Jul 28, 2022, at 5:54 AM, zaynan via groups.io <zaynan@...> wrote:

I'm trying to remove the ball ring on a brand new Sturmey A2 hub that is not built up into a wheel. The reason for this is to retrieve the main innards (not driver assembly) to be used as a replacement for the same hub which is built into a wheel but with faulty innards.

There may not be a solution to this but thought I would ask. I have tried (with the hub held by axle in a vice) and sprocket installed to use the ball spanner in conjunction with a chain whip on the sprocket but you simply can't get an accurate enough and forceful enough purchase on it to loosen the ball ring. (full internals for the A2 hub are not currently available, hence the problem!)

Any help would be greatly appreciated please!


Re: ball ring removal on hub not built into wheel

Practical Cycles
 

Thanks all for your advice. I have decided to rebuild the wheel with the new hub. The faulty one can go back for warranty since it has done zero miles!

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